Jack Kellogg 0:00
You really got to find out like, what you love and who you are right and find your identity because your identity for the previous five years of learning is just all trading and all just frustration and being too hard on yourself.
Oh god damn. Good.
What’s going on guys, we’re back with another episode of the afterhours Podcast. Today, we have a very special guest. We have Jack Kellogg, who is super notorious all over Twitter. Everyone knows who he is. So thank you so much, Jeff, for coming on. We are super excited to have you.
Jack Kellogg 0:34
Yeah, thanks for having me on, boys. Let’s do it up.
So before we start, I have my drink. Jack has his drink. James has his drink. So if you guys don’t have a drink, pause the video. And let’s get started.
Jack Kellogg 0:50
After hours for a reason, right?
That’s it. Exactly. So Jack, you’ve made verified $11 million trading, which is an unbelievable amount of money. It’s an obscene amount of money. And it’s an incredible amount of money. But a lot of people don’t know that you’re trading for a while. So can you kind of walk us through how you started trading? And your whole journey?
How Did You Get Into Trading?
Jack Kellogg 1:12
Yeah, I’ll try to go over it kind of quickly. Here. Just some, some key points. I started in 2017. In January, I was at the gym. And my friends. He was like, Yeah, I’m doing some penny stock day trading learning from like Tim Sykes, or whatever. And I was like, oh, go home and check it out. Because I wanted to do something with the 10,000 that I had saved up from ballet. So went home, watched a few Tim Sykes videos, and then really just scoured the internet, chat with traders, everything watched all the YouTube content that was for free. And basically started trading in January didn’t go well, was a consistent loser for like 20 months. But I met one of my good friends, Dom master Matteo, who taught me OTCs. And we started trading OTCs in 2018. And at the end of 2018, I started finding consistent profitability in September was my first good month. And after losing probably like 15 grand, I turned a profit of 10,000 in September. And then from there, it was just steady, steadily 10 To 10 to 15k for the next year or so. And then when COVID happens, I just started trading bigger and making bigger returns, and averaging somewhere around 50k per month for six months maybe and then after that I started sizing up even more. And my first big big trade was Cy dy in June of 2020, which was a perfect OTC breakout in first red day. And I made like 80,000 on it that day. And then from there, I started to learn how to trade NASDAQ’s and NASDAQ’s. It’s still learning them. They’re still kind of tough, but when the AMCs or the BB Ys come around, I really put my foot to the pedal on those because those are the best opportunities in my opinion. There’s no crazy low flow action and with the thick floats you have a very clear stop. And with the low floats, I don’t like to trade them they’re only good for like two 510 15 20k Max, and if you go bigger size than that you potentially could just fuck yourself over really bad on like the SEC floats. It makes a lot of sense. How
old are you? By the way?
Jack Kellogg 3:31
Thats crazy, because first started talking how old were you when I first met you? Like maybe like 22?
Jack Kellogg 3:42
No, I think younger do I think I was like 2021 When we first started talking
that’s crazy. Yeah.
You said you were about what you were doing valet before? Yeah, so
Jack Kellogg 3:51
I saved up my cash through valet drive and did valet for like four years
was car that you ever valet I knew that was
Jack Kellogg 4:00
probably say a McLaren
Do you ever see like any sketchy stuff happening where like the valet drivers would like bro like rip the cars around or anything like that?
Jack Kellogg 4:10
I mean, I was guilty of that a few times. I mean something I remember this one time this guy came in with like a brand new BMW six speed M three. And he was like yeah, bro to lease just rip it around have some fun because like word. I wrapped it around the city. And yeah, a few of my other buddies took some cars on the highway and shit, but we played it safe.
I’ve always assumed that they did that but gotta get it verified.
That’s funny. Jack, I have a question for you. So you kind of I feel like you’re we know that you’ve had a long journey. But at the same time, I feel like once you found that consistency, you kind of got big like fairly quickly. How did you go about scaling your size? Were you like compounding, like were you looking at your account saying like I’m risking a percentage of this? Or was it all just more like confidence and feel?
Jack Kellogg 4:58
I would say a lot of it is just wait Waiting for like that net zero moment where it’s how much liquidity is going to be in this next one minute candle and how much liquidity Can I take safely. And if it does go in your direction, and you put in a large majority of your like one thing that I do believe in too is like separating your accounts. So you don’t have all your money in one account. So if something ever crazy were to happen, you just lose what you had in that account, right? So after I made my first 100,000, I diversified my money into three different accounts, I had one account with 41 account with 31 account with 10 or 20, whatever. And then paid taxes, and all the accounts went down a little bit more because of taxes, but I was really just looking for that net zero moment. And that where you can strike and take most of the liquidity or the most, the fills and a certain candle. And also, there’s something else that I like to look for, which is adding the winner. So you start in small to get a feel for it. And then once it goes in your favor, then you also can add your position, move your stop down to break even. And those are really like the trades that I’m looking for. Like I said, I don’t like trading those low floats, I like just like trading a small position and holding for a conviction type trade verse, the stocks, the OTCs, and the bigger floats, you really can size into them and keeping that stock very tight. And make sure you’re stopping out at an area where if it gets above it, then you don’t want to become part of the trade anymore because it’s not in the same. It’s not the same conviction if it gets over a certain price, right? So it’s just really looking for that moment.
How big How big of a learning curve was it for you like for people in general or for you even for like sizing from OTCs to like NASDAQ stocks, because it weird for you to like look at an OTC stock maybe like I can use like hundreds of 1000s of shares versus like changing your mind and being like a NASDAQ maybe using 20,000 or something like that.
Jack Kellogg 6:53
Yeah, I would just say it’s, it’s all through feel right, you really don’t know how the your p&l is gonna look until you’re in the trade, right? So just by taking I think I’ve probably taken like 6000 trades in my career now. And you trade all different types of sectors, all different types of floats all different types of times a day. And through that you can kind of almost like right away in a trade. Like I usually know if I’m right or wrong in my gut within the first like 510 15 minutes of trading it and if I just if I feel like it’s off, I’ll just try to exit my position for as close to break even as possible. And the same thing with NASDAQ. It’s just the OTC has made a lot of sense and the NASDAQ’s you learn which ones work which ones don’t really quick because I’ve gotten into a few situations where you just blink and you’re like holy shit, I’m already down this much HOLY SHIT Marty down this much. And it’s just like, those are the ones I don’t really want to be a part of anymore. Or at least I tried to avoid.
OTC Breakouts and Gappers
Yeah, so you kind of talked about like growing exponentially and COVID and kind of like finding your footing. Would you say mostly it was OTC breakout that really kind of grew your account exponentially or was it just like other patterns in OTC too?
Jack Kellogg 8:03
Yeah, I would say the main thing, the main three are probably just OTC breakouts was definitely the first one that I started with. Or just OTC Gappers, which I learned from from Connor just NASDAQ appers as well. We’re just kind of buying at the closing price and selling into the next day into hopefully a gap up and Spike panic dip buys where stock just panics at the open like for example like sh MP when it topped at like $1 Panic down to 50 cents within 15 minutes and that was a great buying opportunity where you can buy it at 50 and sell it at 6070 75 with a very tight stop loss of 50 cents. So if you’re getting in at 5152 53 selling it at 70 risking 50 It’s a great risk reward trade. And yeah first green days after a stock fades for a while I don’t trade these NASDAQ’s because whenever a stock usually pops. After it’s gone on a big run it usually just has massive selling pressure but with OTCs it’s a bit more clean where people like to kind of buy it back up after it tanks.
This is a SHMP here
Jack Kellogg 9:13
that that I’m talking about the run in 2019 Yeah, that day,
So these are these are the type of setups that you’re looking at.
Jack Kellogg 9:23
Yeah, this was the ticker that really really grew me. I started seeing I think I started buying at like five cents and probably sold it at like seven to 10 then you rebuy it at 10 cents sell it at 20 rebuy it at 20 cents sell it at 40 and just really just trading it the entire way up but yeah the first day I bought it was it was perfect like double top breakout over five cents, sold it the next day at 789 Whatever then bought it again at 10 sold at 18 then bought it again at 30 and sold it at like 50 or 60.
That’s Wow, that’s a crazy chart. When you’re looking at these like how Big does volume kind of play a part like volume plays like a pretty big part when you’re looking at these types of setups?
Jack Kellogg 10:05
The more volume, the better. And I think it’s kind of the same thing with NASDAQ’s. And my favorite charts are the ones where they’re doing no volume. And it’s a flatline, and it has a spike, and then it trades relative high relative volume for an entire month or two, and then kind of breaks over that price. Like you can even see it right now like BB AI. And so when you can see that they don’t really trade, they didn’t trade much volume before the start of the year. But after this year has gone on, you can see that there’s they’re trading 10 to 20 million shares, pretty consistently. And this is a stock that I’m personally watching, like into the end of the year, if it can hold up these this two area and start breaking over like three, four or five, this could potentially be like a COVID type runner, if there’s enough gas in the market and AI can recover.
Yeah, I’ve been looking at this one too. I already had like, kind of like a long line drawn, like up and up. And for whatever reason. So yeah, no, that’s super interesting. I think Alex had a question. Yeah,
I was gonna say you mentioned Jack, that you’re looking for these ideal setups, not the low float, you’re looking for high volume, high converting high conviction setups, where you know that you can size it and you’re not going to be, you’re not going to, if you have enough stock, essentially, your slippage is going to push the stock up or down a certain way. So you don’t want to deal with that. My most recent memory of that perfect opportunity is probably Bed Bath and Beyond, right. That’s the ticker that I made a lot of money on. And I know that you made a lot of money on it. So can you kind of maybe explain what you saw in Bed Bath and Beyond on the short. And then now what you’re seeing kind of on the long setup with the cue on it.
Shorting a Bankruptcy Stock With a Short Thesis
Jack Kellogg 11:44
For sure. If you want to pull up that chart, Harry, yeah, you zoom in there to the first run in August. Right there. Yeah, that. Yeah, so that was a that’s when this I didn’t really even trade it when it went to 50 or whatever. Because AMC and GME were better opportunities. But when this popped up last year, I ended up trading it. And I was in Greece during the time, so I missed the breakout over 10 to 12. But it was pretty crystal clear when you see like the wicking action to the downside and had a nice breakout over 12 I probably would have sold it at like 14 1516, something like that and missed out on like the crazy move. But after I got super extended, I was like I was looking at this for a short and I didn’t trade it the day that it topped with the huge volume. But the next day when it gapped up, I thought that was a perfect opportunity to get short. And I ended up taking i don’t know i was i was in Greece and I had like a few things to do. So I didn’t stick around for the entire day. But I position myself would probably like 50,000 shares short, probably from like 2728 after it peaked out at 30. And it just it didn’t end up fading like it had a few chances where it go down and then it came back went down came back went down but I still put myself in a position in case this top that 2728 And then halted all the way down to 20 bucks 18 bucks and that would have been a massive trade for me keeping my risk within breakeven spectrum and then just the bad news hit in this thing got fucking crushed down to $8. And so I really missed that that setup actually my best trade on this was the long after it came all the way down and I think I longed it from like 11 to two for 10 or 11 to like 14 with like 30,000 shares or something on the bounce. And that was a good trade for me I missed a short on it because I was I was long and I didn’t flip my bias quick enough on that trade. But that really opened my eyes up to BBB why because of being able to execute good position sizes with tight stop losses and then if you want to go into this year, yeah, so I was looking at this stock and I started buying this one I had I did pretty good job I bought like 170 just seeing that it was down so much. And I was kind of just thinking that we could see some of these bankruptcy stocks run it’s something that Roland Wolff talks about actually is once these stocks come out with bankruptcy news and they get crushed there’s often like a big bounce so we saw it with pure TQ watt PRTYQ which was like a 20 cent stock that random like 60 cents this one is part of city right yeah yeah Party City they they were on OTC now I think PRT y was when it ran. Yeah, anyway, I saw that one run so then I said Oh, BB white BBB why probably has a decent chance to run. So I bought it Yeah, that first run it like a buck 70 Before the short. So yeah, I bought it in there on the first or second day after they had earnings and I swung it overnight. A and I think I sold it at like 250 or 275, or something. And I left a ton of money on the table, obviously, when all the way up to six. And then I started getting short bias on the top day, not the day that it faded, but the day that it traded around four bucks, and I had a short position on it quite large. And but it kept holding the green to red area. So I ended up downsizing my position for a small loss. And then I bought it, and I ended up selling it at like five or 550. And I captured the end of the squeeze. So I took a good mature, good majority of the on the long side. And then getting back to Alex’s question on the short side, when this bankruptcy piece of shit stock has ran from 150 up to six with four perfect days with increasing volume. That’s exactly what I like to see for the big Larry’s setup where it’s trading massive volume every day, it trades more volume every day, there’s more range expansion to the upside. And you’re eventually going to get that moment where it comes in hard. And that’s exactly what happened, the big red day down from five to 350. So I got short in the pre market after it failed to squeeze red to green. And then added at the open and just started to risk the $5 level getting in with probably like a 474 75 entry risking about 25 cents. And then as it started to go down, kind of add a little bit and move your stop down to 475 480. And covering it down into the mid threes and then re shorting it the bounce up to I think it was up to like 450 474 70 or something was a perfect mid day bounce, which offered amazing opportunity to get short again, and then covering it into the coming into the afternoon fade. And I took a little bit overnight on the short side and I gave back a good majority when I went green the next day, which was unfortunate. But that’s how I treated it that run. And then the next run was when it squeezed up like crazy off the $3 area and squeezed all the shorts out then they did a toxic offering in the after hours. And that’s when I knew that Alex did really well on it that next day shorting in the pre market thing just got absolutely smoked the next day and just faded every single day since. But that’s
The Collapse of the Stock
so funny because on that first one that you were talking about Jack when I went to like five, I remember trading it and I remember that was just kind of testing five coming back down to 490. Testing five, come back for 90 testing five coming back down. And I was like wait a second. Like this is kind of looking looking like looking a little bit sketchy. And then like you said it kind of had that afternoon fade where it just collapsed. Right? And that that was really awesome. But that day where it went from, you know, three to six or seven and it squeezed out all the shorts. I was like, wow, this is like amazing. Like I wasn’t caught in it. I didn’t trade it like this is setting up for like the biggest massive trade ever. And the market clothes and I got like DoorDash I got like some gyros or some some shit. I was sitting in my living room watching TV. And I checked my phone I checked the quote and I saw that went from seven to four. And I’m like, oh my god, I ran upstairs to my office ran upstairs sure the shit out of it round. Like I think it bounced like five, I covered around like four. And then that next morning is when they had that toxic offering where it kind of just collapse. And now looking back on hindsight, I think that day that the collapse day in pre market, I must have shorted like 200 300,000 shares some obscene number. And I was like, you know, this is amazing. I locked in like 200,000 on the way down and then a bounce like 50% at the open, reshot it. And
I’m just like, God damn, like, why didn’t I just hold that shit, dude, it’s crazy, because I think the stock closed around like 290 or $3 that day, and every single day since it was just losing 10% a day. 10% a day. 10% a day, 10% day and it’s just, it’s just crazy. Because the amount of volume that this stock traded was obscene. It was an obscene amount of volume that traded and the fact that they kind of trapped so many Long’s on this stock is something that I don’t think I’ve seen for a very long time.
How Do You Deal With the Sector Crazes?
That’s crazy. Jack, do you when you’re looking at these stocks on the long side? For example, how do you deal with like cuz you trade some of the sector crazes and some of like the big runners and all that how do you deal with like targets like how do you deal with like you have so much size and you’re long this thing and like you know when you’re long obviously you don’t know how high it can go? How do you go about that especially because you trade these kind of crazy runners and all that?
Jack Kellogg 19:37
It depends either due to to sizing options or they’re do a small position where I’m willing to put in 1020 30 grand and with those positions I just let them ride for however long that’s usually on the lower liquidity setups and usually on those setups like I just I get too greedy and sometimes they go up a bunch and then I’ll end up only selling them for like a smaller profits that’s something like I write it up like 100 to 100% and then I sell it for like a 70% gain after it turns or something when I when I am sizing into it I only like to size into the liquid ones like BBB y and those ones I’m quicker to sell because sometimes you wake up and you’re up like 50,000 on like a sketchy long and you’re like okay this is good but with like I said the low float ones or the lower market cap ones I still trade those and those ones are just wild because to make hundreds of percent on those like you have to sit through like massive pull backs and you don’t know like if that massive pullback is going to is going to get a bid and continue higher or if that’s actually the top. Yeah, you had a good trade
on MEGL. Didn’t you like the this one right there?
Jack Kellogg 20:47
Yeah, yeah, I had a good one on that. I bought that one at like a buck. 50. Yeah. And I think I sold it at near like four
And that was China’s sympathy, right?
Jack Kellogg 20:57
Yep. China sympathy after top. Yeah, basically, whenever there’s a crazy crazy mover in the market, like there’s always going to be some sympathy play. And depending on how crazy the move is, the the scent, that’s how crazy the sympathy runs will be, you know, and when tops up 4,000% You gotta imagine that some other Chinese piece of shit stock will get some momentum. Yeah.
Did it take you a while to get used to swinging these things like long or short? Was it easy for you to adjust to that and adapt or was Did that take a while for you to get used to?
Jack Kellogg 21:27
It takes a while I think that with learning like the swing trading, you need more conviction. Because there’s a lot less opposite, there’s a lot more opportunities, like exit your position for a loss or win or whatever it is. But you really need to have like this, you’re almost too convicted on swing trades, right. And that’s why a lot of people lose a lot of money or make a lot of money on swing trades, swing trades, because there’s so convicted in their idea that if it goes against them, or if it starts to work for them, they’ll just keep holding, right, they’ll keep holding. And I think with swing trading, it’s really about really trying to find that one trade where it’s just you have the right size, you have the right conviction, and you don’t drink too much KoolAid and you ended up selling it at a good price. And I got a few of those trades per year. But for the most part, I’m just chopping up and down like I’ll lose small or lose a decent on one win small or win decent on another. And it’s really that one trade. And for me that that this year that trade was GFSI I think I bought it around 20 cents and sold it up to near like 80 cents or something. And maybe 60 cents, but I was really, I was really right there for it. If it got up to like a buck or two like it would have been like biggest gain ever like it just need one more day of push. And I’ve been in so many of those situations where it’s just like, just give me one more day and then at tops. Which one was it? GFSI Yeah, it’s before they did a reverse split. And it’s I don’t trade it anymore because it’s a low flow piece of shit now, but it used to be like a thick floater or kind of thick, but I started buying it to the left of your arrow. I think no. Yeah, right there. I started buying it in that area. That’s just because AI was high and literally just so simple. It was cheap. And it had AI in the ticker. I was like, alright, good enough for me. So I bought it at like 20 cents. And at that, not sure I bought it at like seven and I sold it up near the top on the top candle up near 2020 22 ish in the pre market it was up near 75 cents. And then they they came out with the reverse split news and it just fucking tanked. So remember that actually, yeah, so sad. So close, like 500,000 shares or something?
Were so were breakouts a lot harder to come by and 2022? And if so, was it easier for you to get your confidence back in 23 now that things are like really starting to really follow through?
Trade Breakouts in 2022
Jack Kellogg 23:57
Yeah, and 20 I mean, 2022 really, it was the only good setups that I saw all year for like big size big trades where like I MPP and Husa. And like that oil sector run in March, that was my best month by far. And then the rest of the year was me just trying not to blow up on the China pumps, whereas it was either like a huge win or a huge loss on those liquidation plays. And that’s kind of what I did all last year. And it’s just so stressful man like those plays. You just you blink and you’re down like 50% or you blink and you’re at 50% Like it’s super high risk, super high reward. And I just started to learn like how to trade those breakouts. I didn’t even trade breakouts at all in 2022 Because we’re in a bear market. breakouts are not going to work any breakout that attempts is going to stuff and that’s exactly what happened like on the the Tesla situation where I remember Tesla last year. It was trying to like set up like a nice breakout around 300 and it broke out over the level and it was like on a CPI day and then it came back down and close really weak. And then from there went from 300 to $100. And it’s just almost like the opposite of like a bull market like on a bull market on a on a breakdown. That’s where you want to buy because it’s gonna get saved because we’re in a bull market. Yeah that Tesla kind of like that breakout over 300 Yeah, that’s exactly I’m talking about there and then just came all the way back in so it’s just like the opposite of in the bear market since you want to short the breakouts?
Absolutely yeah. Did that hurt your confidence? Was it hard for you to like continue buying stocks as like breakout just weren’t freaking working and like coming into this year? Were you able to like hop back into it? Or was it tough at first?
Jack Kellogg 25:35
I was able to hop back into it, I don’t really I think the the stock that like got my Tingley census started up again on the Long’s was seeing clsm. I didn’t participate in that one. But it ran from like 10 cents to $1. Before they did the reverse split and all that shit, of course, and just seeing like how well that one played out in December. And knowing that in January, and February is usually the hottest month for these penny stocks. That’s why I’m willing to give it a chance to go long. Like even right now. Like I don’t really see too many potential like big breakouts. Like I said, I’m keeping an eye on the AI sector and keeping an eye on Carvana I’m keeping an eye on on stuff like that, where just stuff that potentially could get hot. Yeah.
100% when you’re going long, some of the stuff. How often does catalyst matter? Like if you don’t really see an upcoming catalyst? Would you shy away from breakout? Or are you like, oh, it has a good pattern? It has a good, you know, setup, I might as well give it a try. Or are you trying to think like, okay, you know, it’s a sector play. So like, I know that this is gonna go up to do.
Jack Kellogg 26:42
Yeah, I don’t really look at catalyst at all. I think that’s like the least important thing. To me, the the most important thing to me is volume. The second most important thing to me is the chart structure. And the third most important thing to me is the dilution. And then the least important thing is the catalyst. Because I find that a lot of the times if it’s just if it’s in the right space, if it has the right price, if it has the right volume, like it’s gonna run. And I don’t really like analyzing news because I don’t know what’s going to be good. I don’t know what’s going to be bad. So, like the amount of PRs that I’ve read since I started my career is probably zero. Never read one. Yeah,
So Jack, you make all this money trading. But what do you where do you park it? Right? You can have all your money in a trading Council, where where do you okay? You have all this extra money laying around after taxes, whatever is how do you invest your money outside of the stock market you put into real estate, you put it into indexes, you buy cars, you buy watches, what do you do to kind of diversify your income outside of trading. So that one day if you decide, hey, I don’t want to trade any more than you could just chill out?
What He Has in His Portfolio
Jack Kellogg 27:45
Yeah, that’s a good question. For me, that’s that’s also what 2022 was. Because just coming into even 2021, like my biggest period was was December of 2020, through February of 2021. That was like almost half my my profits like that was like $5 million in those three months. And it was just like, like, I don’t know what to do. I’ve never had this money. My family’s never had this kind of money. I don’t have anyone to go to don’t like have too many people to ask. So it was just through trial and error. And in 2021, like, the first thing that I did was I gifted my parents 100,000 cash. And then after that I bought like, I bought my first Rolex. And I think may I bought my first Rolex, and I bought a car. But that was really just like buying things that were for fun, I guess. Even like the Rolex, like I didn’t get retail, like I bought on the secondary market. So I didn’t really know too much about like the Rolex was and shit like that. So now and then last year, I tried to buy some stocks on the dips, and they kept dipping, I’ll tell you that. So I lost a couple 100,000 doing that. But now I’m in a comfortable situation where I’ve diversified my money. Like I understand like the types of money that you want to put into certain things right? So the majority of my money right now is in just a savings account, because that’s how I sleep at night just earning 4% per year on a few million dollars isn’t bad. And then what else I do is I have some money in bonds, two year five year 10 year bonds, almost a million into that and that also pays me per quarter and then I’ve put some money into certain stocks that I like I’ve made a portfolio I have some dividend stocks. I have stocks that I like like Google that I believe in I use Google all the time. I have some other like cybersecurity stuff and stocks that I’ve done some research and I have a watch collection now for watches. I have I have two dates one GMT and I bought my girlfriend a day just three of them or two of the day dates I both got for retail price are three of the watches I got for retail and the return on them right now according to Chrono 24 is up about like 27 per sent my portfolio it’s not great compared to like some of the other watch enthusiast to get who are up like hundreds of 100% on some, but I’m trying to build my reputation with my jeweler to eventually get the really sought after ones but I got a pretty good one I got the the rose gold and all of dial date, which is a pretty sought after one. I think it’s like top five has about like a 40% return right now. It’s it peaked out at like 100k. During the bubble, it’s back down near about like 60k worth 40k entry. So I got that one and a few others that are not as you have any real estate
Any of you’ve been interested in now or you’re just like, You know what, let me just stick to treasuries, or
he just did a flip with. He just did a flip actually.
Jack Kellogg 30:47
Oh, yeah, yeah, I have a company that I work with that one of my friends introduced me to and we flip real estate and I’m getting into it, I have some money invested. But I’m going to do some joint ventures and basically like their strategy is they just cold call. And they try to get people who just like can’t afford their houses to sell way under market value that are like crappy houses, like you’re looking at people who you’re looking at only like houses like to 200,000 100,000 trying to get them for like, you know, 30 40% off and then putting money into them, renovating them and then reselling them for potentially, like good profits, like maybe 20 30%. So I’m getting into that too. That’s pretty good.
What percentage would you say is Treasury’s savings and like, Google or whatever other stocks you have?
Jack Kellogg 31:38
Yeah, so I’ve did a pie chart like, a couple months ago, I have I think it’s over 50% of my money in savings accounts. I trade with 20% of my money through three different brokerages. I have, I think 10 or 15% in bonds. I have a couple of percent in watches couple of percent in real estate a couple of percent in cars. And I have I think maybe like five to 10% of money into stocks
How to Diversify Outside the Market?
It’s my my biggest question for people is how they divert diversify outside the market because people think that, okay, you make all this money trading stocks, just gonna keep trading and trading and keep growing your account and account and that’s great. But like, you also want to set up like a doomsday fund just in case something happens. But what I really liked that you said is you only keep 20% of your money in your account, which I think is great, because a lot of people think that they should be keeping all their money in their account at all times. And I could guarantee that if you start trading at 2020 and you had a million dollar account in 2021 That shit is probably 50k Right now whereas if you had a million there, you pulled out 500 Put it into stocks, treasuries, whatever it is, you almost saved yourself from catastrophe so I really liked that you’re doing that. And I think a lot
Absolutely. Jack Do you see you diversified but do you ever see a point in your life where you’re not actively like trading as much like would you rather at some point get into more swing trading where you’re less hands on? Or is this something you kind of see yourself being like around for the rest of your life?
Jack Kellogg 33:13
Well what I tell my friends is like I want to retire when I’m 30 but it’s just difficult because like I love trading I know you guys obviously love trading and it’s it’s tough to get away like I do a lot of traveling now like I have a lot of other like hobbies compared to when I first started it was like only trading only trading so then just figuring myself out and growing and also like I think health your health is most important part of your entire life like your health so really just learning about health and investing in your own health is a great thing to do. Yeah, but with trading like days after like seeing like what happened with tarp. And like that day I was I was sure I think like a bunch of science from like six ad and just like getting squeezed on that thing. It’s just like I don’t want to trade anymore after trading match. I’m sure Alex can agree. But like days after that I’m just like fuck this shit like I’ve already made it I don’t need to do this shit anymore. And then I am still grinding kind of out of that you know tough couple of days that the market was but it just reiterates the point of like the stocks that I like to trade and it’s just a good lesson overall but with with trading I don’t know how long it’s gonna go like right now I’m kind of doing the the clover thing with few my friends which is fun, like just teaching people and stuff but with with actual like day trading, I’d like to be done latest like 2030 and just focus on having a family and focus you know live live a simple life have a farm stuff like that not really do anything let investments pay for your lifestyle and and focus on growing a family.
You know, those tough days in the market are there there’s something else man they’re really something else because you can’t ever explain to someone Hey, I lost 400,000 100,000 towards that As a million dollars in one day than they used to be fuck. So I wanted to ask you, when those bad days come along which they come along for everyone, how do you deal with stress? How you decompress from stress, and you have any tips for other people that maybe stress how they could, you know, improve that?
Pushing Through the Toxic Mindset
Jack Kellogg 35:18
It was a big problem of mine in 2019, and 2020, and 2021. Cuz I just put so much pressure on myself to do well, which also, I think, helped grow me into the trader that I am today where, like, if I had a loss, like just going to bed thinking about it all day, like how did I fuck this up, and just like going over when I clicked the button a million times, like you fucked this up so bad, and it was just like fog, fog, fog, all this shit. And I would be pissed the entire day and be so stressed out. And I got into this, like habitual burnout, to be honest, where I would just feel like shit all the time, zero energy, zero energy to do anything, like lost, like a lot of friends, like, my girlfriend was probably pretty fed up with me like my parents, everyone, just because like I was so obsessed with treating and I was so stressed out all the time that I put that bad energy onto them, right. And that’s like, been a big thing of mine ever since I had that, you know, huge three months in where I really made enough money to have freedom and to kind of do things that I want to do. And for me, like, nowadays, you know, I do meditation with a coach like I do like a yoga flow, I go for walks every single day at 11. To get outside breathe fresh air. And I would say like right now, like my schedule, I make sure to go fishing one time per week, I make sure if I’m trading at the setup behind me, I make sure to get off the desk 11 or 12 Max, and go for a walk come back at like three, I make sure to laugh, right I didn’t laugh at all for three years. And I didn’t have any fun. I make sure to have fun. I make sure to go on trips. And make sure to eat good food. Eat healthy foods, spend time with with people that I love and good quality time and really just have fun and laugh things off. Right?
You want to get away from the market and focus on life, love, and relationships. I know that you said that. It’s kind of draining and daunting to kind of bring that stress to your family and stuff like that. Because that’s something that happens to me is you know, whenever I have a bad day, my girlfriend understands she’s she tries to help me but like nothing, she says could help me. parents tried to help me nothing they could say could help me. So when you’re in that toxic mindset, where you are just like a cancer essentially to everyone around you because of your how miserable you feel how much you feel like your failure, how much you feel like you don’t accomplish things. How do you push past that and bring that positive energy not only to you or to the people around you? Because I remember I’ve been there. I’ve been there so many times. And at least it’s something that I still struggle with. I want to know how like other people are able to combat that as well.
Jack Kellogg 37:58
Yeah, I would say just through like doing it so many times just like being in like that toxic mindset. It only adds more toxics toxicity to my day, and I just I’ve been a I’ve been kind of like trading myself just to, to change or push through almost. Whereas like, it was so hard to break that toxicity at first, right. And just no matter what I did, like I just couldn’t stop being negative. But through I mean, I hang out with one of my friends, Ben shout out to him. He lives here in New Hampshire with me. And like the kids laughing all the time. Like he’s always laughing, always making jokes. And that’s kind of almost spread onto me where it like, you just gotta like make a joke about it, man, you just got to like just laugh, but you just got to like, kind of let it out to you. And but at first, the first thing you have to do though is is pause and think about it. Because if you just brush it away without taking that moment to it’s almost like when you stand up for like the National Anthem, like you do it, you get you get done, and then you move on to like the fun game or whatever it is. And that’s, that’s what I do.
I like that. Something I really admire about you is that you’re very open and honest about this. I think a lot of people think like, Oh, this guy’s made a lot of money. He can’t have any issues. He can’t be depressed or sad or angry or whatever. So I think it’s really just impressive that you’re even able to kind of say these things. Was it something that you thought was even gonna have like when you made like your chunk of money and you’re looking at it on, you know, your verified profits and you’re thinking like, I made this much money like, how could I be upset like did you think before that that was even going to be a possibility where you like wow, once I make the money I’m gonna be super happy.
Jack Kellogg 39:40
Oh, yeah, that’s what everybody thinks, right? That’s where everyone gets into it. They’re like, Oh, I’m just gonna make this money and my every problem that I ever had is gonna go away but that’s actually opposite like every problem that you’re gonna have just gets amplified. And I think that after that, like it’s just so much work, then it’s going to take you another like year or two really to learn I like that’s I’m finally at a place that I’m like super happy like this every every year now, like 2022 was the best year of my life this next year that I’m living right now, this is even a better year. And like 2021 When I was the most wealthy, like that was probably one of the worst years of my life. Just because I had all this money. I didn’t know what to do with it, I thought there would be a golden rainbow at the end. But the truth is like you have to keep digging and work and learn how to you have to learn what to do with your money. You have to learn like what how you want to have fun, you have all these opportunities to do all these certain things. And you really got to find out like, what you love and who you are right and find your identity because your identity for the previous five years of learning is just all trading and all just frustration and being too hard on yourself. Yeah,
that’s a good answer there.
God damn God damn.
I felt that one dude. Bro, I’ve just been listening to you preach just like I know. Yeah, like you’re preaching to the choir here, man. Oh, yeah. I mean, I was gonna go over like your BBB. Why trade? But like, it’s pretty hard to like talk.
I still feel that dude
I want to do this like with you every week? Yeah.
So do you maybe want to kind of get into this one kind of what you saw on that, whatever.
How to Make Money on OTC Trading
Jack Kellogg 41:26
Yeah, I can get into this one. This was about I think it was about a $45,000 trade. This one I took this week. I bought it on Friday. And I sold it on what is that Tuesday, I believe. And this one I was I was really just looking at it. Because after BBB why delisted like you also have to take in consideration like this stock is down from seven down to 10 cents with zero pretty much significant bounces except for that one bounce that it had from I’m not thinking bounce from like 20 to like 50 or 60. Yeah. But this this day, like it’s down even more. And you have to consider like all the institutions who were selling it for the past three months, like they’re all out and it’s really just left with like OTC idiots. And I know I can make money on those OTC idiots because they’re gonna buy this shit up thinking it’s going back to $1. And really, when this doesn’t show the full picture, the chart but it was holding 10 to 12 cents for a couple of days. And I just bought it into the close around 3pm Like I just started very small. And then as we are breaking out over 12 cents, I knew that I could move my stop up at first I’m getting in at 12 with a very small position to get a feel risking 10 or 11 cents. And as it starts breaking over 12 I know I can move my risk, probably to around 12 Because if it doesn’t have a big spike and push, then I know that this entry is wrong. So it did have a big spike and push and then I took some more ads into the 1314 cent area because I know that if it doesn’t gap up and push it’s also a wrong trade. So I’m taking these entries which are basically risk free unless I suffer a big gap down which still can happen that’s still a possibility. And then the next day it gapped up and pushed and I sold my position when I saw the level to turn and then I added some back on when I saw the when it turned back up again knowing that I can risk the rest of my position on the low of the day using that trailing stop. But unfortunately I got a little bit scared when it rejected the highs and then came in hard so I sold my position or didn’t so I sold a small portion of my position down in 1735 which was a bad sell. And then after that, I saw how it was trading and it kind of felt to me that whenever it dipped it got saved and knowing that I knew that this would probably be higher later so i i added even more to my position moving my entry up to around 16 So it would be a break even trade if it did stop up stop me out below low a day. And it just went sideways all day I took off like I said at 11 I usually take off took off put some a couple of hard stops and for I don’t put my entire position on the hard stop but I put some of my position on a hard stop so I could run up to my computer if I started getting stopped out just all the rest and it went sideways around 18 and then into the close again it started perking so I added just a little bit and then I sold my ad because I didn’t like how it moved my average up a lot. And then the next day I just ended up selling some at the open and then as it started tanking below 22 That was my new stop the previous closed price. ended up selling my position and locking it in around probably 21 average 21 Five average.
Yeah, it’s a good it’s a good trade. Um, you mentioned seeing the level to turn maybe you could Just like briefly talk to people about that, you know, what you’re looking for kind of on the tape if people are looking to learn just like kind of brief, I guess.
Jack Kellogg 45:08
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, with OTCs. It’s different market making, then it’s not electric, right. So it’s not like you just send your order through and it gets directly marketed through electric route. And second algo type thing with OTC is the market makers have to manually put in your order. So you can see the turns a lot more clear. So you can see when a big seller pops up or a big buyer. And basically, in the morning spike, like, you have to consider like people are kind of chasing this gap up and spike. And when when a wall like doesn’t budge, right when a wall kind of comes in, and it just stays there. Like I think this was like I think it was 1875 was the top and you saw like you saw some prints going through 1875. And he saw a market maker add on to the offer and another market maker add on to the offer. And then you see like the bid kind of start to chip off a little bit. And that’s when that’s like the start of a turn. And then when it turned came back in and the same thing on the long side is a you see a dip and then it’s taking or whatever. And when you see the bed kind of stay firm. That’s when you know it’s probably going to turn again upwards.
Yeah, no, that’s, that’s awesome.
Man, I like look, we’ve we’ve talked to a lot traders and we meet a lot of people but bro, you’re one cool dude, man, like for making all the money you make. And for you know, living the way you live and how humble you are, man, I just want to say like, shout out to you, man. Because like, is the first time we’re ever talking. And there’s the first time we’re ever meeting. I know, you know, Harry, but I’m just really impressed. I’m really impressed with the type of person you are, I’m really impressed with how good of a head you have on your shoulders, and that shows in your trading as well. And I’m just happy for you, dude, I’m happy for you, I’m glad you found that happiness, I’m glad you found a girl that you love. I’m glad that you have a plan to, you know, set up a farm and live wherever you want to live and start a family because I feel like a lot of people, when they get into training, they want to get rich shit, right. And that’s all how we all started, we want to make a bunch of money. And now that you’ve made a bunch of money, you’re not getting trapped in that rat race have I made 10 million 11 million now I gotta make 20 million, I gotta make 30 million, I gotta make a fucking billion. You’re like, you know what, this is good enough for me. Happy. I’ve been through the downs. And now it’s time for me to kind of focus on my life and my family. So I think a lot of people can learn from that, too, is everyone has a different amount of money that they want to feel comfortable, obviously, those have to be 10 million, it’d be fucking nice. It’d be nice. But you have to find that number, whatever that is, that kind of makes you comfortable. That number that you feel that, you know, is going to give you that peace of mind. And once you have that, to realize that there are bigger things in life than money. And for you, that’s a failure, bro. I just want to say like, I’m just really happy for you to I’m really have for you.
Jack Kellogg 48:02
Yeah, thank you, man. And I think that a lot of people they they need to kind of get out of that mindset would like that. That huge, like massive, massive, massive, massive wealth because that it’s not, I think, getting like rich, a few million dollars, whatever it is, or even like a few $100,000 I mean, that won’t last you a long time. But even a few million like you really can do a lot with that if you set yourself up with the right investments, if you set yourself up to do what you love. And I think a lot of people like they get into like this very, like very, very competitive. That’s how I was at first anyway and it’s just like once you make 10 million there’s gonna be somebody with $100 million who then inspires you and you know the probably, if you buy with a ton of like Richard Millie’s and they have insane cars or whatever it is and yeah, I mean that’s awesome but to get to that level, that’s you’re gonna have to go through a whole new level of stress and a whole new and you’re gonna waste all these years where you already you already have enough money to have this freedom you already have all this money to eat whatever the hell you want. live wherever the hell you you want to live, travel wherever you want to travel.
Not sure. And just to kind of wrap it up is the only questions for us like I know who we gotta just bombard you and so you put us in a trance over here I feel like
my mom tell her I love her so
Oh, my girlfriend’s baby crazy, you want to kids? We’re not going to before we wrap it up, or
Jack Kellogg 49:35
Yeah, I mean, I have a question for you Alex and I like I’ve kind of always like trading a lot of the time like I kind of you share your p&l on Twitter, which I highly respect like you Matt as like you guys. You guys share your p&l on Twitter almost every day. And it’s definitely super inspiring and I always notice like you like I like how you trade like you’ll have like a massive win on like the perfect A plus setup and then Other days, you’re just looking for singles. You’re okay making $1,000 You okay? Making 2000 3000 5000 Maybe on like a good slow day make like 20 or 30k. And then the rest of the time it’s like, then you’re gonna look for a huge win a few times a year, whatever it is. And I just, um, my question for you is like, how did you also like, get to that, that place of execution? Did you just learn through your trials and tribulations?
Um, great question. It’s actually funny, because the last two days, I haven’t really traded because I didn’t really see anything that you know, fit what I was looking for. And honestly, the most simplest answer is, I know it sounds so cliche, but bro, I’m not trading for the money. Like, I’m doing pretty well. I got like fucking 25 Louis Vuitton boxes here, as I’m saying, less than fan or the glove over here. So for me, it’s, it’s really not about the money because I feel like the money comes with the opportunity. So my biggest thing in trading has always been I hate missing opportunity. There’s nothing that puts a pit in my stomach more than missing opportunity. So for me just focusing on the day to day if there’s nothing that’s kind of there, like you said, if there’s a low float, I can’t sighs right. My biggest thing is, how can I get sighs on this setup? On a low floor, even if I use 3040 50,000 shares the wrong the wrong entry is going to ruin that trade with at least 20 cents of slippage, right? At least minimum is sometimes more. So for me, I’m always thinking about what is the opportunity that I can just get sighs on. And if I can’t get size on it, I’m okay scalping it. So on those opportunities where we have that Bed Bath and Beyond 300 400,000 shares I’m, I’m I’m notorious for wiring into my account for those setups. You know, there’s when Gamestop was moving, like last year or two years ago, I wired in like, $300,000 into my account, I made 300,000 in that wire out. So for me, I’m always thinking about can I get size on this setup. And if I can’t get size on the setup due to the flow or do the opportunity, I’m just like, it’s not really worth my time. So I’m just scalping around. It’s like, for me, it’s like, like I’m practicing on games, like there’s season games that you just play and play and plays, but the big ones are the playoffs. So I’m always looking for those playoff type opportunities to really build those in. And if not, I’m just treating it as like a regular season game. 1000 hours, 2000 hours, 5000 hours isn’t gonna really change my life is really like I know, it’s sucks, it’s stupid to say, but it’s not going to change my life. So I don’t really think about it. And because I’m not thinking about it, I don’t really care about it. But I’m pretty much just really really, really waiting for those, like you said, those high probability setups where I can get a shitload of size on and then just focus because without that liquidity without that opportunity, it’s for me, it’s not even worth it. It’s not even worth it like scalping around every single day just like I’m like going to the gym and exercising, I’m practicing I’m practicing and practicing every single day every single day every single day. So that when that play off that Super Bowl comes that I’m still in practice whereas if I just fucked off for a couple months, waited for the INGOs fuck it up here I’m going to screw it up. I’m going to screw it up so pretty much just like me practicing I’m I’m getting paid to essentially practice and stay in tip top mental physical executional shape just so that when that opportunity comes I’m gonna fucking attack it.
Jack Kellogg 53:31
Yeah, I agree 100% with what you said there and that’s kind of how I look at it too. And I didn’t trade today either like I didn’t see anything I didn’t trade yesterday just exited a couple swing trades and kind of feels like the market shifting a little bit from like the last four weeks have been pretty good. So we’re probably going to go through a slow cycle the next the next month or so, just kind of always having that what the market kind of should be also in the back of my head. But also I tried the not trading for a month and then waiting for a perfect setup and then going in and I fucked it up so bad it was LW LG OTC runner ran from like a buck to like 20 bucks, shorted a bunch of size and I ended up I was shorting it on the top day, but I was a little bit too early and I got squeezed out. And I probably lost like 50 grand or something and 2021 it was like May or June or something. And it was just so frustrating because I waited all this time and I was super disciplined just to lose money. So after that after that happened to me, which I assume you probably went through something similar where you tried not trading and then you fucked up a good opportunity. Then it’s just about having those small wins like you said that’s keeping you in the game and it’s also keeping your your skills tight because those millisecond decisions that we have to make on the big setups or whatever it is. They’re really what’s going to dictate how much we get paid that year. And if you’re if your timing is off by 10 seconds because you haven’t made it Any trading in the last month or two, like you’re just, we all know what a good setup is, right? But if we’re not trading, we can’t execute.
And you get FOMO to imagine you’re not trading and you’re not making money. And you’re like, Okay, this is the one that I’m coming back for too early. Oh, my size. And all of a sudden it just like those the complete inverse. So I think that being a professional trader, means that you do have to show up every day, you don’t have to trade crazy size every day, you don’t have to size up every day, you don’t have to go crazy every day, but just staying in the market and understanding the kind of cycles that we’re in understanding what is kind of going on. Because you may come you may, you may take off in the market. And then something like tarp happens, you’re like, Oh, my God, I’m going to short the shit out of this tarp, it’s going to go this that, and then all of a sudden, you get squeezed. But if you’re in the market, and you know, all right, we just had the AI sector, we’re going to have the China sector after the China sector, there’s going to be a sympathy play, and EGL there’s going to be sympathy played XYZ, it kind of keeps you in practice, or keeps you in tune with the market to be able to say, alright, like, this just happened. So now that is going to happen. And if you’re not in tune with the market, if you’re just kind of screwing off, you’re going to miss that little, I guess, intuition that comes along with the screen time of seeing these things occur over and over again.
How to Make a Lot of Money?
Jack Kellogg 56:26
Yeah. 100% 100% That’s how you that’s how you make a lot of money. Right? That’s, you got to size up on the best opportunities, and you also got to stay sharp.
Yeah, and make sure those losses are small. It’s like, where I was actually it’s funny because like after graduate with top half and I was like going through my stats and just like looking through all right, like, what if I just like, what if I eliminated all these losers, just out of curiosity, I was like, what what would happen if like, I just got all these losses out of my like, out of the equation, like what would happen if it just never existed and like, it’s literally millions and millions of dollars students like millions and millions upon millions of dollars. So like something that I want to work on a top was an abnormality because like, it halted the liquidity like all this shit was insane. But, you know, just as a trader, I mean, if you guys are watching this, and you guys want to know how to make more money trading, the way to make more money training is not to make more money trading is to lose less money trading. So if you could find a way to control your losses through broker limits, hard stops, MAX SIZE max loss, that in and of itself, is going to lead to more profitability in the future.
Jack Kellogg 57:35
Yeah, I agree. Like I’ve, I’ve taken I probably have made the round like 22 million, but I’ve lost like $10 million in my like career. And I’ve like the amount of like 300k losses, like I’ve had a few 300k losses, like a few, like I’ve probably had like 10 Maybe over 100k Maybe 15 I’m not sure exactly what it is. But it’s it’s really those like 300 400k losses. That just, you know, they’re taking up the majority of my year like, think about it I’ve made I’ve made good money this year, I think I’m up like maybe 1.6 or 1.7 million. And I think like for like I’ve probably lost like $600,000 shorting I’ve probably tops like 400,000 of that which is literally like my shorting stats were insane this year when I was looking at them I was like I’m killing it I got like a 6.0 profit factor. I’m making so much money shorting but it really just takes that one huge loss to reset all your stats back to like a to profit factor right? And I always like I can always feel it coming to because when my profit factor gets too insane like when I’m making like over five five to 10 Like I remember in the bubble my long profit factor was like 12 like you’re just making all this money you’re never losing but that one stock comes along and since you’re making so much money and you’re like Okay like I can wait a little bit because overconfidence overconfidence I can wait a little bit like and wait for this come back down I think I’m still right and then if you add more that’s when you get fucked and then it goes against you and you lose huge and there was one more point that I wanted to make it.
If you’re ever in New Jersey New York, I got to take you out for the fattest Tomahawk you’ve ever seen in your life.
Jack Kellogg 59:27
Yeah, I love Steak & wine
take him to a place where they’re gonna fucking pick that you’re gonna pick the cow that you want to eat that day
Jack Kellogg 59:37
that’s sick dude. Yeah, definitely hit you
And again but I really appreciate you coming on here this is this is just really special to be in the presence of other people that not only understand trading that have made a lot of money trading and are not fucking douchebags, dude. Like as simple as it sounds like it’s just really really nice because the market has a way of humbling you and no trader that’s ever made. Millions of dollars has not been humbled by the market. So you can always tell who’s a great trader, a real trader and a profitable trader by how humble they are because if they are not, they have not been humbled and they have not learned that lesson to take them to the next level. So I want to say thank you, bro. Thank you for coming on. You’re not only inspiring me, but inspiring the people that watch and I wish you nothing but success, bro. I hope you have the greatest family the healthiest Family and I hope you live a lifelong full of happiness.
Jack Kellogg 1:00:27
Thanks, man. It’s really nice to meet you Alex. James. I know we’ve talked before Harry the fucking man
Love you bro. Alright, well, I think that wraps it up. Thank you. I’m lagging pretty hard. You got no screen buddy avatar