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Welcome to the After Hours Podcast Hosted by Harry Hoss and James Freedlender Presented by My Investing Club



James 0:12
It’s going on guys, we’re back with another episode of the after hours Podcast. Today we have Chris who is a longtime MIC member. Chris, thank you for coming on, man. It’s this has been a long time coming. I feel like.

Chris 0:25
Yeah, I appreciate it. It’s been quite a while there are over a year since I joined. Yeah, been away.

James 0:32
COVID makes my timetables all like screwed up. Like, I feel like all the members here like, Oh, I’ve known them for like, three, five years or something like that. But it’s really only been like a year plus, it’s bizarre, because I spent so much time here.

Chris 0:44
Kinda stood still.

James 0:46
I know. It’s not getting any better. But so we’ll start off like traditional fashion. So how did you get into trading? How did you find them? I see kind of give us a little insight into your journey.

Chris 0:57
Okay, well, long story. I’ll try to cut it down significantly, but was in college. I guess I’m around Bao’s age. So yep, I was in college, late 90s. And, you know, I worked on a couple I’ve worked on a yacht and a friend of mine was a broker, that one that on the boat was a broker. And he just talked about, you know, the money and all that stuff. And that’s what perks your ears up. I was in college in Charleston, South Carolina, and I had a friend whose father was a commentator on CBS news about the markets and you know, talk about it. And then fast forward, I had a degree in accounting and was like, Alright, I want to go for the big money. So I applied to a number of jobs, a number of firms and i It’s funny, I actually got a job at that guy’s firm. And then got laid off in the tech crash in 2000, I believe. And then got a job as a clerk on the American Stock Exchange in 2001, April 2001. And if you watch Wall Street Warriors, the first couple of episodes, that guy that works on the AMEX, you could see my former booth

James 2:08
Over his shoulder, it’s cool. That’s really good.

Chris 2:11
Was I was I say, trading options, but I was just executing options, you know, we would find a have a buyer try to find a seller etc. Yeah. And that was 2001. And that American Stock Exchange is three blocks from the World Trade Center. I would every day I would leave, we had a cute in the triple Q pit. We had a booth. And I would just leave from the door from the back door of the AMEX, which is on Greenwich Street every day. And normally, I would turn right to go to the Trade Center to go home. But on that morning, I call my parents and I’m like, Alright, I’m gonna leave, they close the exchange. And that was a 10 o’clock. And I turned left instead of right. And that’s when the building started to come down. So we had a run from my life and I hid in number two Rector Street. If you look on a Google map, you’ll see Rector Street and ran in that building. Because the guy was behind me screaming at the top of his lungs to get in a building given a building and when I did, but I don’t want to get into that because I don’t want to end up crying full body crying.

James 3:27
Jesus, that is a story and a half. Obviously, she doesn’t want so we’re talking 20 years ago. That’s crazy, basically.

Chris 3:33
Yeah, it seems like yesterday, but seems 20 years ago seems so long, far away. Yeah.

James 3:39
Now did you did it when all that happened? Like I don’t want to we don’t dwell on it. But all that happened, did you? Did you kind of think like, I need to do something else with my life. Like I know obviously, it had nothing to do with like markets and stuff. But were you just kind of like all freaked out like I gotta fucking do anything else and like, be away from this.

Chris 3:56
Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. It’s a total reevaluation of your life. Yeah. I every effort we were off for three weeks because we are building had structural damage. You know, all the telephone lines have screwed up. I went back October one, and there was a fine sheen of dust all over everything. So so weird. I had sinus headaches every day for months, just because yeah, just all the dust. And the smell was horrible. No layers, the layers of dust or concrete in the window sills was probably a foot high.

James 4:32
So they closed the market for more than it was one day they closed the right. I think.

Chris 4:36
It was two or three because that was the time the market was closed four days in a row now with you know, with with weekends, but I think they closed it. You know, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or something like that. But yeah, she is so reevaluated and every day you had to show your ID just to get down the sidewalk to get because we were in ground zero. And that was just stressful every day. Am I gonna blow up on it? subway tunnel, whatever, you know the failure.

How He Got Into Trading Options

Chris 5:03
So I quit. And then I became a high school guidance counselor. And I don’t know, you know, you don’t make a whole lot of money. I wasn’t looking to maybe be a millionaire, but you just want to help people. And I guess that’s the educator at heart.

Harry 5:18
That’s Well, right now.

Chris 5:20
Yeah, it’s so I was a typical buy and hold investor and you know, just didn’t trade didn’t, didn’t scalp didn’t do anything. So I worked for four years in the United States as a counselor, and then I got a great opportunity to be a counselor in Japan at an international school. And that’s what I did for I did three years in Japan, and then three years in Shanghai, and loved it to achieve so many dreams, and then did things I never dreamed I’d ever do. But still kind of was paying off debt, mostly because you get into education costs money, so it sucked to be able to do that.

James 6:02
But the itch because they’ll have like, the desire to like be involved in the markets, or is that kind of like on the backburner?

Chris 6:09
Oh, no, I still had a little desire. I remember you hear about Bao’s, Fannie Mae trade, but I had a, I had a Fannie Mae trade of my own when I bought it. I remember when I was interning, I told the kid to short Fannie Mae at 70 bucks in 2004. I was there. They were playing that stock market game in the class. And I was the guest speaker most days. And I just was like, Why the hell didn’t I put that trade on on my own. But you know, whatever. And then I stock crashed to 35 cents or something like that. And I bought it at 35 cents and then sold off at, I don’t know, a couple of bucks. So that’s fine. Yeah, but that’s kind of like I wasn’t in it at all. So fast forward to 2015. And I got in Asia, you know, being a counselor, and you know, the parents are hardcore. So I got, I got burned out, they go 100 miles an hour in China. And I always had a desire to work on boats. So went back to school for graduate degree and the Coast Guard license to work on boats. But while I was doing that, I just was like, alright, I’ll just trade options. I did it before and I’ll do it again just to make extra money. And that was bad, you know, move. So you know, I got chopped up and time decayed and and, you know, I made great money in the in the COVID crash, cuz I was you know, buying puts on the market I was I’ve this markets gonna crash eventually. And I’ve thought so since 2016. But until that happens, you’re going to be wrong on your options plays. But so yeah, I got chopped up, but then I made great money in the tech COVID crash, but you know, overall, I probably lost money trading those options. To set what 2019 I was working in Florida and I came across, you know, mi see on Instagram, I guess. And I’m like, I’m very, you know, education. I’m an educator at heart. And I love helping people. But I also my dad was a detective. So I have that kind of scammy detector. And you know, you follow it and you’re like, Alright, we’ll see what this guy says. And it okay, and your Lord, and by the obviously the p&l, and that’s great. And you just want to be sure that you’re not going to get oh, here’s a $4,000 course that you’re going to buy and it’s going to be basically you know, here’s how to buy a stock and here’s an oscilloscope so, you know, but you, you watch it and you see it and then I tested the waters and I joined in monthly, what June 2020. But then I was under PDT and that account because I you know you have separate accounts, and I’m in my investing and but I went to Vietnam during COVID I was like I’m not getting on a boat. That’s crazy. Because there have been there holding people on boats for months and months at a time. No way. Yeah, so I had a friend say hey, just the school in Vietnam is looking for a counselor emergency, you know posting, I was like, alright, I’ll take it. I don’t care. I’ll done dumber things in the past. So it was great. I was up at 9:30 at night playing the markets or just watching at least at night, but I was still under PDT. So I was really restricted and that just killed me. And so now I came home from Vietnam. I wasn’t gonna go back because cases spiked astronomically over the summer. You know, the government had the military blocking bridges. shut down all restaurants and deliveries and I was like I am not going back there. If I need to get home. I will not be able to get home. So came back and got on a boat. And that’s what I do now I work on a dry bulk cargo ship in the Great Lakes. So we move you know, coal, iron ore, gravel, sand, concrete, rocks, things like that. And it pays well and so that’s getting me over PDT. But now I have two and a half months off because of ice and winter. And I work a month on month off schedule. So when I’m working Oh, so So here we are.

James 10:31
So where’s your trading out now? Like so I guess now that you’ve been an MSc for like around a year you said and what where are you? What are you doing now? What kind of strategy looking at your salon options? Are you shorting anything like that? Kind of give us that rundown?

Chris 10:46
Oh, in the in the in the trade zero account. I am not doing options at all. doing small options plays in my other account, like I’m shorting ARKK, with puts and that’s working out nicely, because tech is going to lead this crash. But yeah, I’m a short biased trader. So James, I love your videos because they’re nice and short and sweet. And I think I’m just I’m you know how they give that iceberg analogy where you they only see 10% of the iceberg above the waterline and then 90% I think I’m right near the waterline, because I, I am just like yesterday, and next TD and Bao mentioned it and I’m like, oh, I should short it premarket at was at 712. And I did it, because I’m trying to follow the rules of starting small and you know, it’s, it’s really just, you know, I’m just like anybody else of starting this scalping. And, you know, not everything’s gonna go to zero that you’re short. So yeah. So it’s more along the lines of like, I got to follow what you guys tell me. And then you know, there’s this notion that like, just because I’m older, doesn’t mean I shouldn’t follow the younger guys rules. And they have done this much longer the scalping game much longer than I have. So that’s the ego talking. So I gotta put that aside, and I think the biggest thing for me is stock selection, I’m trying to hit everything and just build that account to get over PDT one and then build it even more. So I was I was selling credit spreads in Vietnam, and I was trying to long some things and you know, I only had three trades a week, so I was just like, I screw it, I’ll just take a small so I was taking small paper cuts. So that’s my problem. These days. It’s like, what’s the best place and I gotta stick to the watch list.

Finding the Weakest Stock of the Day

James 12:54
I’m hoping I mentioned helping this guy build his account now and like he’s not an MIC he just watched the free YouTube videos and he’s eventually going to join I think it’d be a cool he’ll be some I really want to get in here to interview but something that I’ve been working on with him is when it comes to like short because you’re talking about shorting small caps and stuff and and for him I’m I really just like hammer in this notion of like, you basically have to find the weakest stock of the day. And like I tell him like he starts in a little bit premarket. Sometimes I just tell him man, like you are looking as a new trader is trying to build their account, in my honest opinion, like you really never want to be looking at stocks that are like moving like crazy. Because those are the ones that can be I don’t know many guys that can’t nail a hot chick without taking a few paper cuts. It’s like very rare, right? Like you look at guys like Bear Tom Oh, we all take like little paper cuts on the way up usually when Harry squeezing our ass out. So it’s like, it’s part of it. So you’re basically looking for those like weak stocks and, and how I’ve kind of helped him grow his accounts like kind of quickly, cuz he’s getting pretty fast with it, which is awesome. It’s just like, he really does kind of go into it with a consistent risk. And he gets bigger and bigger. As the stock is breaking down. He’s a scalper and heart like he is just trading line for line. He’s not trying to fade the stock all day. He’s not trying to hold on for hours. It really is just gets in as it’s breaking down. He’s adding but he’s always keeping his risk like very, very similar. Because that’s where people fuck up when they’re building their account is like, they like have like $500 days $500 like $500 days, a couple $100 days and then they lose like 1000 on a day. So it really is just keeping that like mindset of like, Alright, I need to find the right stock with the right range. And that kind of gives me the ability to add while respecting, like a very small like, like respectable risk level. And I think that’s tough and hairy I guess you’ve ever had to do because you’re in Canada, right?

Where Do You Find Your Biggest Losses Coming From?

Harry 14:45
Yeah, I’ve never had the deal. The only good thing about Canada is that I’ve never had to deal with any type of PDT restriction or anything like that because we just don’t have it here. But I guess as far as like my question for Chris, I’d I like where do you find your biggest losses have been coming from, like, if you looked at like your last year trading and you you didn’t look at the options or like the, you know, credit swaps or like whatever you were doing, and you just focus on your small cap trading, and you said yourself, like, where are your biggest losses coming from? Like, where do you think that your biggest losses have came from?

Chris 15:23
It’s very similar to what I would try with options back, you know, back in 2016, or 17. I’m like, Ah, I think it’s going to do this. So I put on an options position. And it doesn’t work out. It’s the same thing with the scalping. It’s like, oh, I think the stock it’s at a line. So I think we’re gonna go long or short, or whatever it is, and it doesn’t work out. So it’s not going according to a watch list, which I should just really do. And then I have that borrow, and I’m like, I gotta use it. Got to use it. Or, yeah, I have three trades, I got to use them. And it’s like, no. Yea.

Harry 15:59
You think it’s harder coming from that type of like, New York Stock Exchange background? Because like, you have this like image of your mind of like, the person you’re supposed to be, like, where you’re like, Oh, well, I worked at a stock exchange. So I should be a lot better than I am like, do I ever kind of get that feeling in your head?

Chris 16:17
Yeah, yeah. And that was, I think, that has to do with ego and hubris. It’s like, oh, I worked on an exchange. And I’ve seen the chaos of 2001 markets crashing, and I’m working on a stock exchange, you know, it’s like, the closest thing of war I’ve ever been, because it was absolutely crazy. Like, oh, I was working for orders. And each of those orders was like, a $17 million order. It’s like, I can do this. And it’s like, it’s different when you Yeah, exactly.

Harry 16:44
And I think that like, also, like for someone like you, because I know that I would feel the same way where I’m like, Oh, I fucking have executed millions of dollars worth of trades. Like, I can just kind of step into this, like, I got this, like, you know, and you, you kind of have that. And it’s just, I think normal human nature where, you know, like, most people would approach trading and be like, like, for, like, a lot of people, like, get into trading and are like, Oh, this is easy. But when you have kind of had that type of background that you have the you know, it’s, for me anyway, I think that it would be a lot harder for me to be wrong. Because like, because you’re, you’re wrong. And you’re like, I should be right, I should be right, I should be right. Because, you know, you have this all kind of experience. But I think with a lot of kind of like brokers and stuff like that, because my uncle used to be a stockbroker. And my uncle told me, like, Oh, you’ll never be as good as me, you’ll never be, you’ll never be this, you’ll never be that. And there was kind of that friction between me and my uncle. You know, he’s, like, all trading stupid. Like, he’d be telling me that trading stupid and you can’t make money. And then he’d be telling me, oh, well, you’ll never be as good as me, you’ll never be as good as me or this or that. But when you when I got older, and I found out what he did, I was like, well, you’re only executing trades on behalf of clients, you’re not actually making the trades yourself, right. Whereas, you know, as an individual retail trader, you have to kind of like, come up with those ideas and those decisions yourself, but when you’re kind of like a broker, if a client has a decision, and he’s saying execute my fucking trade, you know, you got to execute his trade, or you’re out of a job, right. And I think that was where me and my uncle got wrong, because our didn’t get along. Because as I started making money and getting better and getting better, I think there was a lot of jealousy. I’ll go and hit this bill does not fucking,

James 18:40
He’ll never understand. Maybe three years ago,

How Ego Can Get in the Way

Harry 18:43
My mom’s brother. And this weird dynamic, where, you know, the guy just had a really hard time seeing me become successful. And like, still, like, if he asked me to learn, like, I would help them, like, even just because I’m a nice guy, but like, he never would ask to learn or he’d never asked for help. Because, you know, he’s a successful broker, wherever, you know, and I think that that is also kind of, you know, just your ego can get in the way of a lot of things and really kind of harm your growth, you know, yeah.

James 19:15
In like market wise to sorry, I just want to say as far as we’re on this topic is like, I have a few friends who trade in like hedge funds and like they trade like, obviously, like, crazy high beta names and like, they just manage like one of them works for a huge, huge hedge fund and him himself in his basket has like 500 million or something like that, whatever. And when I talk about small caps and stuff, he’s like, he’s like, dude, no one makes money in that shit. And I’m like, yeah, they do. Like you don’t understand like, yes, they do. It’s like, and he’s like, No, because like he says, like, he’s tried it and like, you can’t do it and he’s I think it’s like an ego thing there. He’s just like, he couldn’t do it. So it’s not possible. Whereas like, you know, like for me like I see what he does but like, I think it is all ego because I’m the opposite when I see someone making money and everything other aspects of the market except for forex. I because I think works as a fucking scam and a joke and whatever. But every I when I see people making money and other things, I’m interested to learn how they’re doing it and like, I’m very curious, but like, if you have that ego that it’s not possible and I find the people who have the ego usually are the people that failed at it, because they just can’t figure it out. And it’s like, what is this fucking hard dude? Like, you talked about it like you find yourself like straying away from like, the simplicity stuff like the watch this, like playing the right stocks, and it’s like, I think 99% of people could probably be more successful at this, if they can just focus on the right things and stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Everybody’s always trying to fucking trade like better stocks and like what we can find and it’s like, Dude, it’s like, once you realize that, when you if you’re like, on Twitter or something, you realize everybody’s trading the same stock, everybody’s trading the same shit, you’re not gonna find this like secret little, like fading stock, it’s gonna go all day. And it’s just, it’s funny. It’s ego is like the biggest killer, I think. And I think that’s why most people can’t do this.

Chris 20:53
Right? Well, like with with Harry’s story, it’s like the student became the teacher. And then it’s like, somebody can’t do that. And, I mean, that’s why I think I’m a, I’m a, I love it. One because I’m a, I’m an educator at heart, and I love helping people. But as an educator, you’re also willing to learn. And look at me, I went back to school at prick, basically, 40 years old for graduate degree, but I’m taking orders from a 22 year old kid on the bridge of a ship sometimes. And he knows more than me, and I don’t think of that as a bad thing. I’m learning. I’m trying to learn from anybody I can.

Harry 21:27
Yeah. So we really think that that’s the right mindset, like that you have, because there’s so many guys who are like, like, who sometimes won’t take calls with James or, or just because we’re like, oh, well, you know, like, I’m this age. So, you know, I’ve already got life experience, or I’ve already got this much experience, and which is true, you probably do have more life experience than me because you are 20 years older. But as far as market experience from some guys, like, you know, that’s where you’re lacking. And you really, you want to gain some knowledge from other people with market experience, right? Rather than have that kind of outlook of, you know, oh, well, I’ve lived more more years than you on this earth. So that means I have to know more about the size. Right? But that’s not always necessarily true, you know, walk to a doctor and be like, Well, I’m older than you. So I know how to do open heart surgery or something like that, you know, it’s just It’s wild.

James 22:31
The market doesn’t give a shit doesn’t care about your age, or what your race or anything. It’s just experience based, like, again, like you got guys like, like bow, who’s been in this now, like, 22 years get out. He’s almost been in, you know, eight years or whatever. And it’s like, I mean, Alex, when you start was 19. Like, I’d rather listen to him over, like learning to trade than fucking Joe Schmo who’s been doing this for two years.

The Advantage of Being an Experienced Trader

James 22:54
But he’s 50. Like, it doesn’t make it doesn’t make a difference, you know, and it’s just, it’s funny, I think, I think, unfortunately, like, the market doesn’t really account for your age, because it just, it just all comes down to experience in trading. Actually, excuse me being in the market, seeing things or seeing the only advantage I could see to being older sometimes, is that you might have a different stance on money, you might understand how far it really goes. But then on the flip side, when you’re younger, you can be a little bit more aggressive. So it’s like, there is that inner balance of like finding what really how it works for you and like where you’re at? Yeah, I mean, it’s just like you said, man, it’s just controlling that ego stance of like, I need to be the biggest investing. And because I’m older, because I’m younger, I need to do this, that and the other thing.

Chris 23:38
Well, that was the thing with Eagle Eye, you know, told that kid in 2004 to put on that Fannie Mae trade, but the market and I knew the market was gonna crash. And that’s me just saying I knew that it was gonna crash. Right there. But it eventually did. I just had, you know, educated guess I think, but, and that was what hurt me back in 2016. I was right about that. I will be right about the market crashing. But will it crash in that timeframe that I think it will, it could it could not, and that’s what will chop me up? And but people take that as like, you know, you’re wrong. Yeah, I’m wrong. You know, in that time, and I have to admit that to myself, you’re wrong. And you lost money.

Harry 24:21
Yeah. And I think that like as far as like, the, like, when you when you look at it, like, everyone looks at all these small cap stocks, and they’re like, they eventually have to go to zero, which is completely true. But then it becomes the timing. And so if you can master that kind of timing and your trading to say, right, I know that this is going to go down, but I don’t want an average at the bottom of the range. Or, you know, if the majority and I say this to most people, like if your average as a short seller is near the top of the range, and you expect the stock to go to the bottom of the range again, then, you know, probably eight times out of 10 You know, you’re gonna have a good shot at this, you know, because most small caps that I’ve seen, don’t really break out of that pre market high range and keep going higher, and obviously you break out of that range, then you want to stop out because you’re wrong. But but you know that the edge for a lot of short sellers that I’ve found, has been just shorting near the top of that range. And, you know, and then maybe adding when it confirms, and then that’s your trade. And that can work out for a lot of people. And I think also that, you know, I, I’ve talked to a lot of people and, you know, MIC, and, you know, just generally in the trading community, and the theme that I found really around a lot of like winners, is that if you look at people like Alex and Bao, or like, even like me and James, like, the thing that like when we interview, Alex, and like, I always go back on the interviews, and I always kind of like, like to rewatch them and like, pick up like little things. Because like, sometimes when you’re interviewing someone, like you don’t always pick it up, because you know, you’re on camera, or whatever. So you watch how you’ve done and stuff like that. And the thing that I’ve really seen about Alex, is that when you when you listen to Alex or Babcock, you know, Alex is always going to say, Well, I’m not the best trader. And, you know, you look at someone like Alex, they’re like, Well, you made like, you know, he deeply believes that he deeply feels that he’s not the best trader, and it’s hard. You know, he says, every single day, well, I’m not the best trader, you know, you talk all the fucking time that I was like, I’m not the best trader. And the thing is, is that, you know, a normal person would say to themselves, well, I don’t, I don’t, you know, this guy’s just fucking around. He’s just, you know, looking for this, but I know that he actually believes that he’s not the best trader, he’s like, Oh, these, these kids will do better than me, you know, or this will do better than me, he believes in his heart that he’s not the best. And I think as far as that goes, is that like, winners will do, you know, a lot of work compared to the average trader, or the average 90%, you know, grouping, and say, well, that’s not enough and actually believe that, you know, a normal person will look at them and say, well, that’s more than enough, you know, you’ve worked all day, like, What are you talking about? to them? It’s not, it’s never going to be enough, you know, and they’re never going to be the best trader. And when they, you know, it’s like, you know, my girlfriend is on the, you know, Dean’s List, whatever, and in college, and I said, Well, how did you do? And she’s like, Well, I think I failed, you know, I didn’t think I did, did well, for you studied for, you know, a month, you know, we’ve worked on this for a month, I’ve helped you go over this stuff. I’ve written flashcards, you’ve gotten everything right. And she’s like, No, I don’t think I did well, and the tests will come out. And it’s like, 98, and she’s actually surprised, you know, and I think that’s a common trait with, with people who, you know, win in life is that they don’t go out, you know, or they don’t come in with like, a big ego. And they, they really humble themselves. And they really kind of take time to work and kind of learn and, and, you know, they’re listening to the people who are 20, and they’re listening, and they’re, you know, working hard, just like that. And I think that is a key ingredient to when, whereas a lot of people come in and just say, Oh, it’s easy, like, I’ll be able to do this, or I’ll be able to do that, or I’ll be able to do this and, you know, with a lot of ego. And I think that is probably the biggest harm. As far as trading. That’s probably the biggest harm to people, you know.

Put in the Work and Get Better

Chris 28:22
yeah, I heard a good story of the day, you know, you talk about work. And that’s what I really take from the group, the MIC group, it’s one it’s just educational. And against, it’s, it’s totally not scammy. And people don’t understand that when they you know, they troll, you know, you are on whoever on Twitter or whatever. And they create a fake Instagram account. And, you know, you’ve made it when people try to make a fake Instagram account about you or whatever. But it’s that it’s just so educational. And your, and that you just preach put in the work. And I heard a good story the other day on a podcast, you know, Betty Crocker, they came up with, they came up with the instant cake or whatever, instance something and their sales, their sales were nothing. And they’re like, why it’s so easy, you know, but then they went to a psychologist or something. And the guy was like, you’ve made it too easy. People want to feel like they’ve accomplished something when they make a meal. So take out one ingredient, they took out an egg, like you have to go to the store and buy the egg to add to that cake mix. And then sales increase. And it was just like, yeah, like, I’m gonna feel when I do this training thing, and I get better and I get above the waterline, I’m gonna feel so much better because I put in the work. And that has to do with anything in life. And that’s, that’s see you’ve seen it as you know, things become have become easier in time in history. You know, you’re but you’re still going to have to put in the work and I’m going to feel better, because I did that Coast Guard test and I passed that and I’m only 20% of the people that pass the first time. I feel great about that. But people don’t understand that. And then like on another topic like Back to the hubris part of it, I have a contrarian nature. And I just, you know, I just think that like caution I go back and forth on Instagram. I don’t know he I don’t know if he knows it’s me, but we agree on Bitcoin, but we disagree on Tesla, and I just, you know, you have to stick with your contrarian viewpoint about certain things. And that’s me, and I just have to maybe say, All right, I was wrong. And get out of that position that because my, my thesis didn’t play.

The Problem With Traders Who Don’t Accept Failure

James 30:35
I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you something. Like, I think, like what you said about the easiness I think it’s very true. And I think people cmic and they, they want there to be something more to it. I’ve like, I’ve traded with Alex on the phone during my first read days and stuff. And like, dude, like, I mean, literally, if you look at his chart, it’s like, there’s V whap. And that’s it. Right? It’s just like, his, everything is so simple. And it’s so easy. It’s just the problem is, it’s the human, it’s the operator, it’s just they can’t admit defeat. And I think it took me like, I think I’m honestly like, even though I’ve done well for for a while, but like, I think I’m really just realizing this a lot more. Now. It’s just like, especially when you try to size up like size itself isn’t necessarily difficult, if you can just accept when you’re wrong, because you can technically have huge size on a trade like tons and tons of size. As long as you can accept when it’s time to get out. It’s time to get out. But it’s for some reason. I’ve just over the years, and this is an everything in life. This is like you know, trading, this is like business, everything, it’s really hard for people to just hear, you’re wrong, it’s time to get out. But how many trades Do you like, not get out of stubbornness to get stopped out at the top or you know, cover at the bottom or sell at the bottom, just to realize that if you just took that small, small loss, you would have made all that money back plus a shit ton more if you just then waited for the right entry. And I don’t know what it is, man. But it’s like, that’s something that’s stuck in my head a lot recently, it’s just that they would just accept you’re wrong. It’s okay. Like you take using 5000 shares, and you take a $500 loss, which is small compared to that. And then you finally hit the trade and you make $2,000. Who the hell cares about the $5 loss? You just made money back like it’s just for whatever reason, it’s like, people, they lose, and they shut down. And then they can’t, they can just get their mind out of it. And that’s what blows my mind. It’s like, I mean, Alex was down. What was that there was that one day he was down like 60k. But he said he was he was all in composure. And he’s just like, he’s like, I know, the opportunity is still coming. You know, it was like a big, big day setup and everything. And then he ended up making like 182k Like on that the next trade, right? And it’s like, it’s just a weird mind thing. And I think all a lot of guys I talked to like on calls and DMS, just like the short of V Whap rejection, and they don’t stop out and they get pissed to like, Wait, it didn’t work, why they stopped out at high of day. I’m like, why didn’t you stop that when the V Whap projection didn’t work? When your line failed to work and confirm, why didn’t you stop? Oh, and I fell victim to that for years where I just like, kind of like, I got bailed out a lot, especially in like the last market cycle, like I’d short a line and like, it would kind of go against me, but I had size left. And they thought I was gonna add when it confirmed, but in reality is like, and I made money. But the reality is, it was it was not along my p&l to grow because I was, you know, kind of fighting the stock anyways. Whereas now I’m just like, fuck it, I’ll take a small loss, because I don’t care. And I just had to humble myself. You know.

Adding Your Size When You Think You’re Right

Harry 33:26
I think the biggest thing that the biggest thing that kind of opened my eyes was that, okay, let’s say let’s say your idea is you think that it’s going to be a high day clear out, which some of them clear out. Some of them don’t, right. You know, that’s just what happens. The stock goes above high day, sometimes they stop out all the shorts, and it just tanks. And it’s like, okay, so let’s say you have that type of idea. Or you could do vice versa. Let’s say you think it’s going to be a low day clear out on your long trader, right? If you just add, like, let’s say 10 or 20% of your size, because as as my nature, I am always fucking early. I’m always early. I’m just like, Chris, where I have an idea, but I’m always fucking early. So I was like, Okay, well, how am I going to combat that? Right? And if you’re, if you’re under PDT, like I don’t know if this will work, but let’s say you add like, you know, 10 to 20% of your size, saying, Okay, I think this idea is going to work. I think it’s going to happen, but until I’m right, I can’t add all the size that I want to add. Yeah, no, we go into high a day and I put that 10 to 20% of my size that I want to use on and you’re saying to yourself, Okay, well, we’ll see what happens next. I don’t keep adding 200% I’m gonna say I’m gonna wait for this to confirm. Let’s say we go up to here today. You know, the thing fucking comes up starts fucking crashing boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, it’s going down lower and then I add my size because I’m proven right? And then as we go lower and lower, lower, you can either add More or just keep the original size that you add on. And number one, if you’re wrong in that situation, you can be fucking blown out and you have to stop out quick. But because it’s only 10 to 20%, it doesn’t hurt you in the long run. And when the stock does confirm, you’re still writing. And also that allows you to confirm to your winner because you’re like, oh my god, like, I’m right now adding my size when I’m right, not when I’m wrong, or what I think is going to happen. And so if you want to take up, you know, 10% or 5%, short on Tesla on the way up and say to yourself, well, I’m going to add when the stock crashes, and when people are going fucking nuts, you know, that is the appropriate way to do so on something like that. And if we keep going up, you can just stop out and you’re like, Oh, well, it’s only this much money, it’s not really that much, it doesn’t matter. But the point is that you don’t keep adding when you’re wrong. You say this idea, I think this is going to happen, this is going to be my plan. And then you kind of take that trade and just see if it works out. And I think that is the most eye opening thing. Because if you’re a long trader, and you go long saying I think the stock is going to run and you go a little bit of size, and then the stock runs, and you’re like, wow, the stocks running now and you add all your sides, and we start moving up and moving on. That’s the appropriate way I think to trade as long trader as well as to trade as a short trader is that use that little bit of size to control your FOMO. And when you’re right fucking load the boat. And if you can, every time, right for early people like us, that is what can really really help you, you know, just talking about that VWAP. Projection. I’m going to fantasy order 10 to 20% of my size at V whap. Right, because I believe that there’s going to be a VWAP Rejection, but I don’t really have that confirmation. And so you take a little bit into that V whap. And then when VWAP confirms when we get that candle you’re like fuck it I can add anywhere I want and this candle, the top of the candle the middle of the candle, the bottom of the candle, because I am right i deserves the fucking Chase now because I had the idea if and when that thing fucking fades down lower. You’re like, boom, I fucking nailed that trade. And why did you nail that trade? Because you weren’t fucking you know, let’s say we cut right through VWAP. Well, it’s only 10 to 20% I can wait for the next line. Right? Yeah, the fucking committed and invested into the trade. And that can really help you a lot.

James 37:18
But why can’t people do it? I guess that blows my mind. It starts actually frustrating sometimes it’s like why would you talk to people? And Chris maybe you have a good answer like, what is it preventing people from like, I don’t want to say humbling themselves, but just like stopping especially if they’re over PDT, like if you’re under PDT that is a mental battle. And I you know we I don’t even want to go down that rabbit hole PDT. But like, it’s a mental battle of accepting, you’re wrong, and sometimes not having another trade. But I don’t understand what they’re conditioned.

Putting in the Work and Doing the Work

Chris 37:45
They’re conditioned to think that I have to put on a full position right away. And if it’s like, you’re, you’re giving yourself less chance if you do that, like, they just did it. They haven’t put in the work with MIC. But I think with me personally, I’ve been down 50% on options trade, and it’s come back and I’ve made, you know, 50% 100% 200%. So I think that was my problem. I’m like, Oh, it could come back. And it’s like, no, you’re wrong, you got to stop out on a scalp or whatever. But also, I think like I use, I’m big on analogies. I’m an educator, but I would score the basketball games in, you know, I’d be the timekeeper or whatever and handle the clock and stuff. And I would catch myself, I’d be watching the game and say, Oh, this kid just shot this when I have to be paying attention to the bigger picture of the ref blowing the whistle, and that sort of thing and hitting the buttons. So I can get caught in that. That minutia, I guess and I’m not paying attention to the bigger picture on the screen here. And that’s a big thing. But also going back to what you said about you know, Alex, and then just putting in the work. I was a couple of months ago, when I was in Vietnam. He was did a morning watch list video and he said no one’s watching these videos. And he was kind of upset by that and and I texted I emailed him or DM him and I said, the people that aren’t watching are watching the videos care that you’re doing this. And if they’re not going to watch the morning, watch this video or put in the work. We don’t want them. Like, yeah, that’s true. Let them be it because then then they’re going to come into this group, they’re going to be going Hey, where’s this line? Where’s this stuck? They’re going to be DMing all of you guys and filling your inboxes with with crap minutia questions. And you don’t want that you want the guy that’s going to look for a video first and ask questions for harder things.

Putting in the Hard Work

James 39:42
2400 members, right, we have 2400 members and I would say and I’m gonna I’m not calling people out. I’m just gonna make my broad statement. I bet 200 of that. 2400 Maybe 400 Maybe I’ll even go that actually put in like serious, serious work. And I think like, putting such hard work because this is what they want, I think the rest of them, like, you have to be super honest to yourself, like, most of the time, I feel like you say you’re putting in hard work. But the reality is you’re just showing up and like, wondering why you’re losing, and you’re and you might like, listen to a few videos and then be like, What the hell, you know, I’m still not getting it. But there’s so much into this. And it’s, it’s true, it’s just like you said, there are, there’s a small finite group of people here that are putting in the work because like, if you want to do this successfully, like there is fuck ton of work. And it’s annoying, because it’s not like college where like, you go to college and says four years, you get your degree you’re done. This is like your tuition could be six months, it could be a year, it could be 10 years, it really is different for you. But I do find that like, the more you put into it right away, like, it’s obviously you’re gonna get all that Mark experience that much quicker. And it’s like, it’s obviously you have been here a little bit. And I always hear from you, like you said, you’re always active and like, and all that shit, and it’s gonna show and like, you will be the person that, you know, you’re above water, and it’ll come quicker than you think.

Chris 41:00
But I think what you said 200 people out of 2400 That’s statistically accurate. Because, yeah, you know, and that’s fine, because those people will fail, and they’ll be shaken out. And, you know, but I think being on a boat. And sometimes we have internet, sometimes we don’t, and I’ve been, you know, it’s, it’s tough, because I can’t download the videos from MIC onto my laptop or something. But I’m listening to any, like, we have to do sanitary on the boat, and you know, clean them up, but we’re just to keep it whatever. So I’m always listening to podcasts reading a book. And that’s just, it’s something to keep me in the game, even if I’m not technically in the game on a boat. But, ya know, it’s rewarding when you put in the work, and it’s paying off and it’s not paying off yet, but I know it will.

James 41:46
Yeah, of course, man Of course. And I guess we I didn’t realize we’re coming up on almost an hour or like 40 minutes or so. Yeah, no, I didn’t even realize but before we wrap up, what is something that you would recommend to all new traders, aspiring traders, or people who are studying really found their way?

Chris 42:02
Um, if it’s a new trader? I think what I’ve been focusing on is that one, play that one, that’s what I keep hearing in the podcasts, chat with traders podcast, or whatever, or this podcast is that focus on that one play and what suits your personality, but also, like, being an educator, you get the kid that always goes to the bathroom, it’s always on their phone. And they’re the ones that are asking, what is VWAP ? What? Don’t go to the bathroom? Stay here. That’s annoying to me.

How to Get Started With Trading Stocks

Harry 42:37
Going to the bathroom to trade stocks, like position, bro.

Chris 42:42
Yeah, exactly. But, you know, they gotta, they gotta watch the videos and to take three months to watch, just watch videos, and, you know, sit in front of your computer, and watch the market. Because that’s what I did in Vietnam, I was like, sitting there not being able to trade but they’re mostly every night, watching the markets. And they’re not doing that,

Harry 43:03
I just want to add one more thing before we go. I I forgot what which book I picked this up out of, but a lot of people as far as like watching videos and and stuff like that, it’s really just getting started, right. And so if you, let’s say you love to hang out in your living room, and your living room is your number one spot in the house, if you stick a laptop in the living room, or if you stick a, you know, a book out in the living room, and you just put it on your coffee table, when you’re watching TV, you’re going to be looking at the TV looking down at that book, looking at the TV looking down at that book, and then eventually, you’re going to have to pick that book up. Because, you know, you’re looking at the book, you’re looking at the TV and you’re like, Fuck, I can’t watch TV anymore, I have to read this book. And if you stick education in spots where, you know, you’re, you’re not doing education, it’s really kind of helped me as well. Whereas, like, also, I’ll stick a laptop on the on the living room table. And then you know, as I’m, as my, you know, girlfriends watching the backs or something like that, you know, I got my laptop and fucking, you know, look there, or, you know, you know, let’s say you’re in the bathroom, you know, you know, you got to take a ship before the open, but there’s a book right beside it, you know, maybe you can like read a book there or something like that. And that is what kind of helped me a lot. As far as just getting going, you know, 90 of the battle is just to get going every day just to study every day. And so if you put you know, a tablet or something like that, you know, maybe maybe you’re you’re cooking and you have a tablet on the counter or something like that. If you do stuff like that little tricks like that, that can help you a lot as far as

Chris 44:40
I have. I have a laptop to watch videos, I have a physical book, I have my phone with the Kindle app and podcasts on it. And then I have a Kindle so I have all those all the time. But I think I guess you know, I know we gotta go but one more final point is that also if you’re not really loving this, then it’ll it’ll shake those people out and like The example The analogy I was a golf coach in Shanghai, and I love golf. But I dreaded going to practice every day. It just I didn’t like the practice I liked to play. But then when I coached softball, and I was taking the stats for the kids, and showing them their stats, and looking forward to doing the stats, I love that sort of thing. And I look forward to going to that practice every day. And because I found something that I like, and that’s, you know, this, I am doing the little tiny things every day to get better.

If You’re Not Obsessed With This You’ll Become Obsolete

James 45:34
I’m obsessed with this, if you’re not obsessed with this, you will become obsolete. It won’t. You won’t make it, you will make it I wish this was something that I could just like, give to my parents or my friends and be like, Dude, this is how you do it, like, go enjoy it. But like, you can tell, like the ones that ask for help, and then you explain it to them. And and they’re just like, oh, like, you know, can you kind of tell me what to do. And I’m like, Dude, I already can tell you’re not gonna, you’re not gonna make your buck. Like, this isn’t gonna work. If you’re not sitting there. Like, I remember, this is the last thing and this topic just got in my head now. Like, I remember like, when MIC first came to be and like we’re the after hours became a thing. So we were in there. 24/7 24/7 We were in there, shooting the shit talking about trading, making jokes, like talking about what we found talking about our trade all that shit. And it just, it truly shows the people who are here now and the people who will be here for a long time, versus the people that come in on a Monday. They’re bitching they didn’t make money on a Tuesday. They’re asking for a refund Wednesday. I mean, that’s just goes in life and everything like that. But yeah, that’s why I’m so thankful for him. I

Chris 46:33
Like, I was down a rabbit hole. Like I love the trading but you’re kind of I was in a group trading options, which is great. It’s a great group, though, you know, not scammy but then there’s a certain someone with for a course that’s expensive, and you’re like, I was down a rabbit hole. Like, why can I just find my teach myself to fish? But I’m learning to do that. And I’m at the bottom of the ocean trying to do that. And it wasn’t working until I found MIC. And I’m just like, Thank God like people that have great intentions. Yeah.

James 47:05
I love it. I love it. And again, thank you for coming on, bro. I think I think I were coming up. We’ve had so many interviews and like it’s been long enough. So we always want to keep having people back on especially as they progress so, so let’s keep in touch and let’s we’ll get you back on as soon as possible.

Chris 47:20
Yeah, appreciate that waterline soon.

James 47:24
You will be!


About the Author
119 posts
James F.

James Freedlender is a driven day trader and entrepreneur hailing from Boston. Since embarking on his trading journey in 2018, James has honed his skills and specialized in trading penny stocks, with a focus on longer time frame moves. His dedication and sharp instincts have contributed to his success in the competitive financial world. In addition to his day trading accomplishments, James is a thriving business owner, running a popular barbershop and collaborating with his family in the design and renovation of homes and businesses. His entrepreneurial spirit and keen eye for detail have paved the way for continued success in his various ventures. Outside of his professional pursuits, James is an avid golfer and hiking enthusiast, always eager to explore new trails and perfect his swing. His love for travel has taken him to many corners of the world, enriching his life experiences and providing inspiration for his work. A firm believer in giving back, James is passionate about helping others achieve their financial goals and guiding them on the path to success. His wealth of knowledge, combined with his dedication to uplifting others, makes James Freedlender a respected and admired figure in both his professional and personal life.